Here is a sincerely perplexed fellow criticizing aikido as it is often presented:
Rogan's question is a good one, where is a video of effective aikido? The vids of O Sensei waving his arms and people falling down are not credible. Rogan notes a NCAA D1 wrestler would wipe that old man out. No doubt. But O Sensei did not build his reputation as an 80 year old man. He rarely taught after say fifty years old, meaning 1935, more the occasional coaching, and demonstration of principles.
Rogan credits a judo tenth dan (in a video shown in a simultaneous window) showing credible counters to judoka in their prime. But any of those guys could have also taken the 80 year old judo tenth dan, as could any NCAA D1 wrestler, and O Sensei could have as well at 80 years shown the judo counters as well as the spry 80- year old judo man. The judo man is showing judo principles, the aikido man showing aikido principles. (Aikido is an original mixed martial art, blending kendo, judo, jiu jitsu, etc. O sensei had mastered judo before forming his own art.)
Rogan is stating the obvious: martial arts is not some magic thing, where an 80 year old master must be effective against a NCAA D1 wrestler. And then when some deluded fellow believes that, Rogan denigrates the art. How about simply cautioning the deluded fellow? Such delusions can end badly.
You'll note the fellow here has a dojo of deluded students. Yes, O Sensei waves his arms and people fall down. O Sensei was making the point that if you are not fighting, you can win. The idiot above actually tried to fight an MMA guy. How is not fighting and fighting the same thing? It is not. If students are self-deluding, that is not the master's problem. If a "master" is self-deluded, that is also not a problem, for an MMA man, although you will note, initially, even the MMA bought the delusion, briefly. And by the way, if O Sensei could take on a D1 NCAA wrestler, he would have, and taped it. He was not delusional. The test of a system depending on how it deals with a D1 NCAA wrestler is a false test anyway. What weight class? Within D1 NCAA the weights are divided since since a contest between bantam and middle is inherently unfair. Next, to train enough to get to compete in NCAA takes discipline and dedication. Many wash out. In too many years of playing at martial arts, I am yet to see an accomplished fighter of any stripe initiating aggression. The people I see initiating may be big and strong and fast, even crazy, but never disciplined. Any discipline can be the deciding advantage in a contest. The test is against the no-holds-barred, open-class attack. Even MMA forbids that. Muhammed Ali was not delusional when he fought Foremen in 1974. Ali developed a tactic to keep from losing, let alone killed. He did not fight, but let Foreman fight the ring ropes. After Foreman tired out, Ali went in for the knock out.
Pacquiao fought Mayweather, and Pacquiao was defeated, although controversially. In any event, it is fair to say Mayweather won by not fighting, or in the measure Mayweather refrained from fighting Pacquiao, Mayweather got the edge. (Incidentally, Pacquiao also used rope-a-dope in a fight once to win against a superior boxer.)
Aikido is unique in martial arts for making this paradoxical point, as Tohei called it, positive non-fighting (negative non-fighting is to run away). NCAA D1 wrestlers experience what many judo competitors note, that beautiful throw took no force on the part of the winner, the opponent's force brought him down when met with the timing and body positioning of the winner. A throw forever in the highlight reels. Aikido as a martial art studies exactly that. No more, no less. Every art esteems it, Aikido specializes in it. In every martial art there is someone working on this concept. O Sensei when he was a young badass, decided to concentrate on this. Where is the video of effective aikido?
Here is O Sensei at 52 years old, in 1935. This is the kind of aikido I learned, and although it looks suspiciously compliant, the uke are defending their limbs from nasty pain should they counter or resist. O Sensei is not moving to win, he is moving to de-escalate. Having the wind knocked out of you, or hitting the ground hard can dampen ardor. What is not shown is aikido against a NCAA D 1 wrestler, O sensei would move very differently. And a 52 year old v a 22 year old would be messy. (Also, in Japan Japanese students tend to "all fall down" as a sign of respect when not thrown... I've seen the same kinds of things outside of Japan where one or two get knocked down, and the others do not fall for formality sake. They make a master earn his throw.)
Like Pacquiao and Ali, O Sensei would adjust his tactic. He would neither box a boxer nor wrestle a wrestler. Three things, 1. both arts require both sides fight or the non-fighting side gets points off to the degree of losing the match. 2. All non-aikido systems have rules, while aikido does not. No one trains to defend against what is not allowed. Expect an aikidoist to make moves the other practitioner has never practiced against. 3. Both arts have clearly defined moves, expect the aikidoist to study the counters employed in the other sport. When a NCAA D1 wrestler goes for another's legs, rarely does it work out, for the counter. What makes one think an aikidoist will not employ the same counter?
Let's look at a 50% weight advantage vs aikido's chief instructor, circa 1955 (The aikidoka is Tohei Sensei, aikido chief instructor, with whom I have trained, and the instructor of my first three teachers):
The earnestness is demonstrated by the fact the challenger has torn Tohei Sensei's clothes, and apparently Tohei Sensei reckoned he might get taken if he did not choke his opponent out, which he does. I see various points at which Tohei might have thrown the opponent with an tomoe-nage, but if you don't know how to hard fall out of that, you might get seriously injured if not killed.
I have practiced all over the world and sparred with people trained in plenty of other styles. That just happens in 45 plus years of practicing assiduously. I've sparred with an air force judo man who was a training partner in Colorado for the USA Olympic judo team. I trained with a secret serviceman and surprised him. Tae kwon do, and so on. Never was anyone out to win, but to learn.
As a student of the legendary Bernie Lau I was taught to make arrests, and have effected about a dozen of them over the years, and plenty of face-offs that did not lead to me arresting the other party. Here is another point often missed in these discussions. Never once have I encountered anyone in a conflict that had any martial arts training. I don't think there is a single club that will train someone essentially criminal, no instructor will tolerate such presence. While most resisted, none were effective, because they simply had no idea what was happening or what to do about it. Their resistance just brought them more pain, and clearly, I had not even begun to fight. At the same time, if I ever tried to arrest a true psychopath, who could care less what was happening to him, and intent on killing me, well, then, my number came up, and I die. It's the life I chose.
The reason we have NCAA vs NCAA because there it does get down to the man. There is a closed system for competing within which there is another system for comparing and scoring. Aikido Vs whatever does not tell us much of anything.
But aren't there a lot of aikidoists who believe (like Rogan's guest) that the master could wave his arms and people fall down? Sure. Delusion sells. I've been in those dojo's. I am not welcome. But I have practiced all over the world and you can find enough people everywhere that study aikido as a martial art.
Senator and Judo champion Ben Nighthorse credits judo with keeping him out of trouble, but then training for the Olympics does tend to mop up all of one's time. His only regret is judo can sure beat up the body, leaving one with lifelong injuries, acute with old age. It is no coincidence that most of the old aikidoists come over from judo, where they gave up the combat and injury to work on that rare exquisite perfect throw.
Aikido has more than its share of delusionals, but so what? If you want an effective non-fighting martial art, there is aikido. Mr. Rogan needs to nuance his criticism a bit more.
Aikido, practiced as a martial art, by a conscientious objector, looks like the above. I will come at you with a view to pacifying you, you will not get up after I deal with you. I won't kill you, and I'll work not to injure you, but if you do get up, I am coming at you again. I can say truthfully there is nothing I enjoy more than dealing with violence. Never am I happier or more alive.
The top aikido people all came out of judo, so sometimes it is difficult to tell the difference.
Note when he says "with a forceful movement".
Well, often your opponent is giving you the force in judo, and so you do not have to supply your own. Many judo people know this, and switch to aikido, giving up the competition side, and just work on the shibui of the perfect throw.
If someone is behaving rather badly, but not initiating force, then aikido is pretty useless, to be effective, it needs the opponent's force. If someone is just being boorish, insulting and picking a fight, you can simply use spoken aikido, embrace and extend, redirect: agree with the insult (your are right to criticize the way I am dressed, I never had any sense of style, tell me, how might I improve my look?) Give them three chances to lighten up, and then say "Now I think you go to far with that statement. By then there is usually enough people on your side to inhibit the boor from escalating. If not, aikido game on. A great scene in literature is exactly this in Brothers Karamazov when the odious father is abusing the old holy priest in front of his sons. Check it out. Feel Free To Email This To Three Friends.
Bernie Lau was leaving a mutually esteemed Chinese restaurant last night as I was coming in with a Congolese priest stationed in Seattle and a daughter in from Paris. The restaurant allows double parking in their lot by patrons so you can sit and order and then the staff will come get you if a properly parked patron desires to leave by the path you have blocked by double parking. Sometimes they have a runner who facilitates all of this for tips, a situation that is responsive and sensible, with rules made up on the fly. Anarchy in action. As Bernie, my daughter and the priest chatted amiably in French, I moved the car to best position. Bernie looks good, and is still travelling far and wide. As he was just leaving, we said our good-byes, and inside the restaurant the priest was intrigued by the fellow he had just met, so I apprised the priest of Bernie's background. For the purposes of this blog, I'll add this about Lau Sensei:
When I started aikido in 1971, there were about 30 regulars at a club that had a 4th degree and a 3rd degree as instructors, the late Hirata Yoshihiko Sensei and Lau Sensei. Both had been direct students of Tohei sensei, the 10th degree chief instructor of aikido. I was able to practice as uke when Tohei sensei visited a couple of times, and since Seattle was a regular stop-over for USA-Japan flights, we had a steady progression of top aikidoists visiting, Imaizumi one of the most memorable. Pound for pound, I don’t think you could find more aikido instruction talent per student outside of Tokyo. And then, circa 1974, Tohei sensei sent Kashiwaya Koichi, an aggressive and fresh san dan, to teach in Seattle too.
Bernie Lau as a police officer began his transformation from one of the original students of aikido 1954 in Hawaii under Tohei sensei. Lau Sensei gained his first two black belts from O sensei, and his 3rd and 4th from the Ni Dai Dosshu. Lau Sensei’s style was crisp, efficient, and matched his size and build. He taught a half dozen of us high school students Tuesdays and Thursdays after school in the early 1970s, before he went to work on the police night shift.
As he did more and more police work, he began to change his style. How come he changed his style? As he puts it, aikido does not work.
Very, very true. Depending on the context.
In his work as a policeman, he found aikido doesn’t work if you use it to initiate violence against someone who is no threat to you. But police officers must initiate violence against people who are no threat to them. Police must make arrests upon people who are not fighting, but are not cooperating. People who refuse to turn around and put their hands behind their back. In these instances police must use aggressive force. All the more so for people who resist being forced around.
But aikido has no techniques that employ aggressive force. Aikido is unique as a martial art, it is nonviolent, it has no techniques for initiating aggression. In aikido we use the aggressive force of the attacker, like in judo. But as opposed to judo, we initiate no aggressive moves.
Aikido does not work if you wish to use your power to defeat someone else.
Aikido does not work if your opponent is merely resisting, if your opponent is not combative, not aggressive.
Aikido does not work if your opponent is merely noncooperative.
Aikido only works when someone is initiating a forceful attack upon you. Since aikido is focussed on dealing only with forceful attacks, it is pretty useless if you plan to initiate force and defeat an opponent. Aikido is not for police work.
On the other hand, since the aikido is limited to dealing with any any all attacks in any and all forms, in the measure the opponent offers force, aikido is superior to all other martial arts as a defensive martial art.
If someone is not initiating violence, why fight, let alone use aikido? Otherwise you’d be using aikido to attack, and aikido is pretty useless as a means for that.
On the other hand, aikido, since it uses the opponent’s force, is pitch perfect condign response to an attacked initiated by an aggressor. This is necessary to be a martial art, it is sufficient to be a martial art. I leave it to other martial artists to include in their contexts the problem of defeating someone who is not initiating violence, and includes using one's own power or force.
As a conscientious objector I can neither initiate force nor bring my own power into defeating anyone. At the same time, I have effected about a dozen arrests in the last four decades (most recently a hit and run absconder who tried to escape on foot.) In this instance, his attempt to use force to get past me earned him pin up against the wall, with his feet back and spread (as I said, one of my first instructors was Bernie Lau, a cop.) He was uncooperative, but not violent, so we both stopped there. When he stops using force, I stop acting. As he relaxes his body, I relax the tension of the pin. As he tests the pin under relaxation, I ramped up the pin so experiences force feedback. (Aikido is fairly unique in the pins hurt only if the bad guy tries to get away; also the pins are actually beneficial, they promote a healthy stretch, as opposed to arm bars which break bones and joints.)
If I ever had to exchange blows with someone, I am pretty sure I’d get hurt. On the other hand to answer a bum’s rush with tomoe nage takes little extra energy from me to execute, but can be quite devastating when the attackers face hits the sidewalk, body upside down, at the velocity the attacker brought, for lack of training on how to roll out of a throw. Ouch.
To legally effect an arrest (in most jurisdictions), you must place your hand on the person you are arresting while stating they are under arrest (largely so the prisoner cannot later claim he did not know you were referring to him.) In aikido, you always get close enough to place a hand on someone, which allows you to deflect a close-quarters attack if they violently disagree with being arrested. Only about 1/2 the times have I had to get physical when making an arrest, and oddly, the more serious the crimes, the less likely the resistance. (the rapist, kidnapper and burglars all gave up without resistance. (Not sure if that holds true in general, and if so, how come?)
In Bernie's Change of Heart story, as he tells it, aikido did not work when he in plainclothes he tried to use it to initiate violence against someone who was not resisting, let alone offering violence. When the drunk lumber jack in Bernie's story failed to respond to aikido applied as an offensive tactic, Bernie switched to his considerable training in shotokan karate, a style he had studied assiduously, and began attacking the lumberjack with those striking techniques. No effect there either. The lumberjack simply proceeded to his car to drive off, whereupon Bernie in desperation tore off the antenna, which pissed of the lumberjack, and brought him back out to deal with Bernie. By this time dozens of police officers arrived to answer the officer assistance call, and proceeded to beat down the lumberjack with good old fashioned police work, the night stick shampoo.
Another aspect of the case is Bernie had felt so bad about the turn of events that he quietly disposed of the evidence of the lumberjack drinking, and the lumberjack won $65000 lawsuit against the city for police brutality.
So the whole truth is, no martial art worked on this lunberjack, and certainly not aikido as an offensive art. Aikido never was intended for the purpose of violence against someone who was not resisting let alone offering violence If your context includes initiating violence, or attacking nonviolent offenders, then truly aikido sucks. But as the original mixed martial art (kendo, judo, jiu jitsu, ki-ai breathing) and stripped of offensive techniques, it is a superior self defense system.
Here is a fun video of the Master teaching his style of aikido pre-war. This was 35 years before I started aikido. I've now been practicing 45 years. More changed the last 45 years than the previous 35.
